Martin Bennink | Saxion University of Applied Sciences
Professor of Applied Nanotechnology, chairing a research group in application-driven, multidisciplinary research projects at the interface of nanotechnology and life sciences. His projects are in close collaboration with industry, SMEs, and other societal partners, aimed at societal challenges.
Editor:
Welcome to The Science Dev. We are at the TechMed event at the University of Twente. We are joining here with, Martin. Nice to meet you.
Prof. Martin Bennink:
Yes. Nice to meet you.
Editor:
So I attended your talk. Today morning’s talk, and I was really inspired by the things you do. Can you tell me more about you and what you do at the University of Saxion?
Prof. Martin Bennink:
Yes. So this morning, I actually presented some of, this work and, so the type of work that we do is, is application-oriented research, which is a bit different from from what is typically done at academic universities. And the research is actually in the field of nano and micro technology. And the part that I presented here is more focused on that tech. Some of the activities that we are, involved in is lab on the chip development, organ on the chip, molecular sensing, and, and with a partner, because I’m not running the group myself. There’s also another professor running it. It is more focused on chip technology and integration into, real life devices. And I think the important thing is the TRL level, so to speak. So, so we don’t work on the very fundamental level. It is really in between, I guess, fundamental research and small SMEs and larger industry.
Editor:
I see.
Prof. Martin Bennink:
So that also means we basically talk to external parties to find out, like what exactly do you need? And then with technology which is already developed up to like a lab demonstrator, we try to go to like a prototype stage eventually.
Editor:
That’s nice. You touched upon one of the topics, which is a lab on a chip, or the organ on a chip. Can you tell us more about, these, these concepts, and how they are different from a diagnostic device?
Prof. Martin Bennink:
So the lab-on-a-chip is actually a concept which emerged from the fact, as the name suggests. In the the old times, you basically if you do some chemistry or if you would like to do a test, you need a large scale laboratory.
And basically it just involves getting your sample, mix it, stirr it, heat it, maybe add it slowly for it and actually detect. And the idea of lab on the chip is to basically put all these steps onto a small chip. And the chip is typically it’s like a microscopic slide. It’s also typically glass like or at least transparent. So nowadays you also have plastic variants.
Prof. Martin Bennink:
And and on this chip you have microfluidic channels and little chambers and mixes and everything. And effectively it means that on one end of the chip you put on your sample that you want to analyze, and from that moment on it just goes automatic and it’s being transported and maybe mixes it up with some reagents. Maybe your reactions are going on, gives a color that is going to be detected.
Prof. Martin Bennink:
So effectively everything you did in the lab, you can now basically bring with you on a small chip.
Editor:
How different it is from a diagnostic device? Let’s say, a Covid-detecting device.
Prof. Martin Bennink:
It’s not so different. And you could even argue that the Covid test is a microfluidic chip, although the principle is a bit different. These are not microfluidic channels.
Prof. Martin Bennink:
Covid strip is actually a piece of, of paper, in which, the liquid is being sucked up that it’s again the idea of actually having reactions ongoing in this device is identical. So in the Covid strip, this particular place is where, in the lines, these are basically molecules that capture the, in this case, the protein that that’s classifies Covid.
Prof. Martin Bennink:
So in that sense, that is actually a microfluidic device. I think that they call like paper microfluidics because it’s not actually channels in glass. But it’s more paper-based.
Editor:
And the similar concept is for the organ on a chip.
Prof. Martin Bennink:
Yeah. So organ on the chip is actually one level up. And that sense is also not actually set up for, for diagnostics. This is more into the direction of, of replacing animal testing. So in the, the I think this morning I wanted to also show this. I mean we typically happens in drug development is we start out with a lot of different candidates. And then as we progress we go further down and limit the sets. But the point is we still need animal testing to to actually determine is what animal testing is.
Prof. Martin Bennink:
It’s expensive. It’s actually not representing the human body in that sense. And I guess nowadays, ethically, we don’t actually find it very acceptable anymore. And organ, the chip is basically bringing the premise to basically replace that parts. So what you do is, again, you have a microfluidic device which is consisting of small channels and chambers. And within these chambers you actually are able to cultivate cells, living cells.
Prof. Martin Bennink:
So you put cells on the surface. For example, the liquid is just like a blood stream. It’s just supplying the cells with the nutrients they need to actually stay alive. And once you do this in the correct way, you can basically kind of mimic, the behavior of the cell as it would be in your body. And that gives you a platform, because after that you can basically add anything and just see how your cells response.
Editor:
That’s that’s interesting. In the morning session, we saw that there are a lot of direct applications of this research area. So when you pick up a research topic, do you have a end goal in your mind? Do you want to have a product, or do you want to have a basic research that could lead to a product?
Prof. Martin Bennink:
That’s a good question. I guess, as a working at a university of applied sciences, we try to stay away from from fundamental research. If there’s any fundamental research to be done that would be more favorable just to work together with somebody here at the university and have them doing this. And that’s all parts. I think what we typically do is, what I usually refer to is bridging the gap.
Prof. Martin Bennink:
So, there’s a lot of fundamental research here being done by students, PhD students, which typically ends up in papers, and, well, students as well as since also have this habit, like once they’re done they move away, go work somewhere else, etc.. And that effectively means if this is not continued, it’s just well remains written in the thesis.
Prof. Martin Bennink:
In that sense, I guess what we try to do is to see what is being developed here and connect this with a question or problem that is out there. So we try to bridge it from two parts. So from the fundamental part we try to find out like okay what is available, what is technically feasible.
Prof. Martin Bennink:
And then the other side talking to the end users, we try to get clear what exactly do you needs and, and try to to, to bring these two worlds together. Because I mean, if you have a well, in this case, a lab on a chip device demonstrated in the lab for most companies, that is not sufficient to do anything with, because they would have to do all the testing, make sure it’s reproducible, it can be manufactured, it can be it needs to be representative.
Prof. Martin Bennink:
And these are the things that we could do in collaboration with the company. So what we typically do is, okay, it works in the lab. Does it also work in the fields? If you talk about the lab on a chip device that you want to use in forensic research. It means that the chip still needs to work in an outdoor environments, with all extremes that you can have.
Prof. Martin Bennink:
And that’s the part of stuff that, that we do. The other thing that is important is that, the end user is usually not a researcher. So the chip itself is way too complicated, as with all the pumps that are fine in the lab. But that’s in the practical case. You don’t want to have these pumps anywhere, so you have to find a solution.
Prof. Martin Bennink:
And this is more engineering about okay, how do you deal with these reservoirs and the tubing and the pump that it needs to have. So you have to think about integrating this, this device into a well I guess a small, apparatus which takes care of everything in such a way that the end user can safely use this without having any knowledge of microfluidics.
Prof. Martin Bennink:
Would even be best if the person even doesn’t know it. It just needs to do what? What’s, what fits in into their job description and not have to worry about all the technical details.
Editor:
So nowadays, we have an influence of AI on every field. Yeah. Do you happen to use AI in your, nanotechnology?
Prof. Martin Bennink:
Not so much as I would like. And I guess I also have to be honest that I also feel like a steep learning curve in, in figuring out what I could do for us. Right? I mean, it’s I know it’s there. I guess I’m also seeing that this is also here to stay in some way. And I guess what, just doing research, you use AI tools, but that’s like a lower level of getting text redirected and everything.
Prof. Martin Bennink:
But I think really in research we’re not doing so much. I think there’s one exception. We do have a project project in this is more focused on e-waste. So this is about the, this problem that we have that we have all these nice devices that we use, and we typically throw them away way too early.
Prof. Martin Bennink:
So creating a huge heap of stuff with actually valuable materials. So one thing that we are developing is a, this is in collaboration with a company in the, the waste management to, detect electronic printing boards and being able to actually identify, which parts are interesting and then based on that, sort them out. We do not take the next step in actually taking the materials out.
Prof. Martin Bennink:
But this is the first step just to be able to to sort things and discriminate the users material from the material that is, well, can be can be enriched. And right now this is well the now becomes detail. I think this is still machine learning and always not sure if that is I already or on the on the verge.
Prof. Martin Bennink:
That’s I guess in the future AI is going to be familiar. I’m pretty sure.
Editor:
The problem with AI is it sometimes makes up facts.
Prof. Martin Bennink:
Yeah!
Editor:
And that’s not good. If you are dealing with biomedical research or health-related research. Since you are not into AI. So what what are your views on this? How is this going to affect?
Prof. Martin Bennink:
It’s interesting. You mentioned this, as, I guess, part of a personal hobby. I am interested in what I could mean for society at large. I just do a lot of reading on this, which is not all that positive, to be honest. I guess in the medical field, as long as you talk about image recognition as an assisting tool, that still means there there’s a there’s a human involved, right?
Prof. Martin Bennink:
So I guess I guess that’s also kind of my, my standpoint, as long as there’s a human involved making the decision. I have no objections to AI. As soon as I also has the power of decision. It becomes complicated, at least in my view. I mean, in in that case, I do not completely oversee how far this can get.
Prof. Martin Bennink:
And also in a sense that that you might be able to, well, generate artifacts which are not intended. But the problem with AI is also that we don’t exactly understand how things adhere or emerge, as they call it. And that’s a bit scary in the sense that that’s that’s I think it’s interesting to to study that further.
Prof. Martin Bennink:
But you have to make sure that, that you have like a, a safety lock on this in a certain way. Especially if you talk about AI. And again, this is all kind of kind of future speak, right. If people talk about AI getting, well, more intelligent than we are, I mean, just just not technical AI based on anything.
Prof. Martin Bennink:
I think when you reach that point, there’s an issue right then.
Editor:
I don’t think it we will reach that point.
Prof. Martin Bennink:
I don’t think so either. If it’s there’s people that actually claim this as being a positive thing. Right. And that I don’t understand, because if you have a system that is smarter than you, how are you going to control this?
Prof. Martin Bennink:
So so I hope you’re right. I hope we will never get to this stage. But honestly, I don’t know enough to to, to to to judge this.
Editor:
You emphasize on the, the industrial collaboration and the talking to the end user because they are at the end, they are going to use your technology. Right? So how successful you are in transferring your intellectual property to the industry?
Prof. Martin Bennink:
Sometimes better than others because it’s a rough road.
Prof. Martin Bennink:
It’s interesting because usually in projects, you aim for this, this, this large thing to be validated, and then eventually turns out that you do some validation or you do some, some, transferring of knowledge on, on a very small detail, which is fine. But this, this kind of also showcases the complexity of, of things. We’re not on the level that I can kind of have will pull things from a track record is like, okay, this is what we have developed in that what you can buy that right now.
Prof. Martin Bennink:
That’s not the case. I do think that a lot of the, IP that we generate in, in, making the chips. So these are small things like, like small tricks and treats to make them more effective or to use a slightly different material, or to do it this way does eventually be taken up by by companies.
Prof. Martin Bennink:
This is not going to be a final product, but it’s a small step in this entire thing. Yeah. The good thing is, I mean, being part of a university of applied sciences, I do not have any, commercialization agenda, once this is not I should go for a different jump, I guess, if I would do that. So I could we can relatively freely collaborate with companies without having a commercial conflict or interest.
Prof. Martin Bennink:
And that that makes it a bit easier. It’s a bit more, like open innovation work. Then, then maybe in other places.
Editor:
Yeah. That’s nice.
Prof. Martin Bennink:
That’s what it is. Nice? Yes. So since you mentioned working on lab on a chip on or organ on a chip. Do you face any problems in, disposing of your kits?
Prof. Martin Bennink:
Whatever, research chips you make, because of environmental reasons or ethical reasons. I’m just trying to get this, this question right. I mean, you now talk about the environmental impact that these chips might have when they are being used
Editor:
After they are used.
Prof. Martin Bennink:
Yes. Actually, we started taking that into the equation.
Prof. Martin Bennink:
Let’s put it that way. So, we do look at the but again, I mean, sustainability can, can as it has different grades. Right. So I think as soon as you do better than what we do now, you’re making a step already. So yes, we do take that into consideration when thinking about a solution on very different levels.
Prof. Martin Bennink:
Right. This can be in material wise in the sense of, of okay. So this material, when it is discarded, is it harmful. You could also think about in a device setting to think about which parts have to be really disposable and which parts nuts. This is, by the way, difficult in medtech because in medtech, if you have devices that come into contact with blood or anything else.
Prof. Martin Bennink:
Yeah, having something not disposable is not really an option. Yeah. At least this is today’s opinion. I mean, I’ve also seen that changing over the last ten years. I think we’re getting a bit more open-minded in this, but at the moment, still everything that is in direct contact with a lot might even small chance have some cross-contamination.
Prof. Martin Bennink:
It’s disposable, but you could still think of having all the other equipment that is not directly in contact as, as a separate machine that you reuse. So the best example is that if you make a chip you have for example a photonic readout, it is not very sustainable to put like a laser and detector on that same chip that you toss away. These companies have this which I am very much against.
Prof. Martin Bennink:
In that case I would need to go for a relatively simple chip that’s the disposable parts, and then have a reader that has the laser and the and the detector. So in that sense, we we are considering this, although they have this benefit. Right. So yes, there is the burden on the environments. On the other hand there is a health benefits.
Prof. Martin Bennink:
And it’s not easy to, to both put them in numbers and just add them up and see what comes out. But you can have that discussion. So so for some reasons for some applications this days environmental burden might be quite acceptable and maybe for other applications we do not find this acceptable. So that depends on, on how much you change that using that device actually makes.
Prof. Martin Bennink:
So if you think, for example, of of having a person just checking his health status every day, I will be a bit more strict than if it’s a device that, enables a health professional to make a decision like, okay, it needs to be treated with this one or with that one. Yeah. Then I think the health, sorry, the environmental burden is acceptable.
Prof. Martin Bennink:
As opposed to, to a commercial product that everybody’s going to use. You have to be more critical. And then you have to think about, not only making the product, but directly, also think about where is that going to end up. I mean, do we come up with a scheme that people can bring the materials back and can we reuse, so that those things are coming into play nice.
Editor:
Do you have any advice to younger people, younger students who want to come into nanotechnology research or biomedical research?
Prof. Martin Bennink:
Any advice on, in what way?
Editor:
Is this field exciting?
Prof. Martin Bennink:
It is exciting. No, no, I think it is exciting. And maybe this is not limited to nanotechnology. I think you can put this to, to the technology at largest.
Prof. Martin Bennink:
What I find interesting is that, well as you know we have quite some, we have a hard time finding enough students that want to do technical disciplines like physics, chemistry, some of the better than others. But that’s, I mean, the trend is going down, which is strange because if you look around, I mean, technology is everywhere.
Prof. Martin Bennink:
And and I think the, the difficulty is that, that for some reason, technology is perceived as complicated. And, you have to be some kind of a nerd to be able to do this, which I think I think is a misconception. I think there’s many areas that, and again, technology is broad, right? I mean, you can go to chemistry, you can go in to, to, to or medicine or biomedical related stuff.
Prof. Martin Bennink:
It has a wide spread. So, so I would invite every person or every student or even, people still in high school explore this. Also for the fact if you’re looking for a decent job nowadays, I mean, there’s a lot of companies here that are just calling out for professionals in this area, this.
Editor:
So this was a nice discussion with Martin. Thank you very much for joining us.
Prof. Martin Bennink:
You’re welcome.
Editor:
And see you next time. Thank you!
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